Curse

Full Metal X · Nov 02, 2007, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

Lavans, you may be in for a treat if you keep this up.
Stormlord is at the ready.

lol

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Lavans · Nov 02, 2007, 10:02 PM // 22:02

wow...i simply ask people to bite their tongue unless they have something useful to say and i get jumped...>.>

whatever

Quote:

Originally Posted by furanshisuko

lol this is not a battlefield ,the bottom line is that your build aint that good and there are in fact some other builds which might work better .so you dont need to take this as an offence to you ,you do have to consider that you are not going to be killing lots of foes in a mission or quest that will give you energy some missions wont have many corpses also

using lots of energy in any build aint good

signet of sorrow ftw

Thank you for atleast giving some constructive criticism

Blackhawk · Nov 02, 2007, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lavans

wow...i simply ask people to bite their tongue unless they have something useful to say and i get jumped...>.>

whatever

Well what did you REALLY expect after posting that build and getting all wound up when people dissed it, even though they're actually trying to help you out here.

Unless you're running solely with Vamp Horrors or Shamblings, Arcane echo really has no place in a MM build, as to Echo a spell thats not even an elite, not to mention has got a piddly 3 sec recharge is now lets face it, is just a bit on the silly side and a waste of a skill slot.

If you're going to run as a N/Me MM, you should look at spells that will give you either hp or energy back rather than wasting skill slots on skills which dont do a great deal to enhance the build.

I Phoenix I · Nov 03, 2007, 08:09 AM // 08:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lavans

[skill]Deathly Swarm[/skill][skill]Animate Bone Fiend[/skill][skill]Animate Flesh Golem[/skill][skill]Rising Bile[/skill][skill]Arcane Echo[/skill][skill]Blood of the Master[/skill][skill]Taste of Death[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

Works quite well...you have the option to either dish out damage relatively quick or summon bone fiends relatively quick...it makes it very easy to hit the 10 minion cap real quick.

Let's see...average Necro has about 45 energy? Ah, what the heck, lets say 50.

Arcane Echo = 15 E
Animate bone Fiend = 25 E

50-15-25 = 10 E...

Regen of 20/3 energy during the 5 seconds of casting (lets go with 7 energy).

10+7 = 17 E...

So, what's the point of Echoing Animate Bone Fiend again? You're going to wait a good 6+ seconds before you can even cast Animate Bone Fiend again, so why not just scrap Arcane Echo and cast Animate Bone Fiend a second time right after it recharges?

Lavans · Nov 03, 2007, 08:27 AM // 08:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Phoenix I

Let's see...average Necro has about 45 energy? Ah, what the heck, lets say 50.

Arcane Echo = 15 E
Animate bone Fiend = 25 E

50-15-25 = 10 E...

Regen of 20/3 energy during the 5 seconds of casting (lets go with 7 energy).

10+7 = 17 E...

So, what's the point of Echoing Animate Bone Fiend again? You're going to wait a good 6+ seconds before you can even cast Animate Bone Fiend again, so why not just scrap Arcane Echo and cast Animate Bone Fiend a second time right after it recharges?

The [skill]Arcane Echo[/skill] was put in there with the intention of busting out minions or casting [skill]Deathly Swarm[/skill] as quick as possible. Energy really isn't a problem with Soul Reaping at 15 when you and your minions are doing enough damage to kill mobs at a decent enough rate that the high energy cost of [skill]Arcane Echo[/skill] really doesn't matter.

Edit: Think about it, 3 creature deaths will get you the energy to double cast [skill]animate bone fiend[/skill], which if your a MM, those 3 deaths will come quite easily. Also, it's not a MM's concern to deal damage, because they have the minions to do that. The only thing that you need to worry about as a MM is keeping your minions alive and your group's numbers up. Once you get enough minions and run into a large group of enemies, you can literally summon more minions quicker than yours will die. If your attacking a small group, then there's no real need for [skill]arcane echo[/skill] unless you want to spam [skill]deathly swarm[/skill]

That's just my play preference though. I'm sure there's better ways out there, but this build has worked well enough for me that I really don't have the desire to think up or look up a new build.

tmakinen · Nov 03, 2007, 09:35 AM // 09:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lavans

That's just my play preference though. I'm sure there's better ways out there, but this build has worked well enough for me that I really don't have the desire to think up or look up a new build.

And therein lies the rub

Have you ever heard of 'Sealed Deck Play'? FrogDevourer, one of the founders of our guild, created an utility that gives you a random selection of skills within given parameters (like, 20 skills for a R/Me, must include a Rez Sig), out of which you must then choose 8 as your build. The idea was to avoid cookie cutter builds and promote innovative new combinations, as well as make the game equally challenging for new and seasoned build makers alike.

From the optimal build point of view these kind of random builds are truly abysmal but (almost) miraculously, they work 'well enough' in PvE. Some of your skill choices don't make any more sense than a random number generator, and I gave specific points and constructive advice in my previous post and got a 'shrug' in response. If you are not, as you proclaim, interested in making your build better, then why did you publish it in the first place?

Lavans · Nov 03, 2007, 10:06 AM // 10:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

If you are not, as you proclaim, interested in making your build better, then why did you publish it in the first place?

I never really said that I was interested in making it better, just that I was open to constructive criticism. I published the build here to simply share with the people of this forum how I MM in PvE, and that if there was anyone that wanted to give it a shot for kicks and giggles, they could.

Corpselooter · Nov 05, 2007, 05:52 PM // 17:52

*looks*
*laughs*
*leaves*

AuraofMana · Nov 07, 2007, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Here's a thought:
1. Arcane echo on MM = LOLOL no.
2. When you are playing with a party, you don't even need a damage skill.
3. If you are running minions as tanks, your role isn't damage dealing. Take AOTL, BotM, and Mystic Regen (and bring another enchant like Dark Bond, Infuse Condition, or Masochism).
4. If you are running minions as damage output, you won't have time to use damage spells. Bring OoU (and Masochism so you only use 6e) and some sort of self-heal. Chances are, you won't be able to keep yourself heal, but that's okay since your minions are ripping the monsters a new one. Your monks can keep you alive, but you still should have some sort of self-heal. Mystic Regen can be used here since you are running Masochism anyway, but Heal Area/Karei's Healing Circle and others are okay as well. Consider bringing SoLS and Taste of Pain. Some people like using Vampiric Minions for a self-heal, but with GFTE and OOU (and maybe Ebon Battle Standard) each bone fiends can deal 100+ damage in HM, so I like running that.
5. If you are MBing, run Rt/N with Explosive Creation, Boon of Creation, Jagged, and Death Nova. Consider bringing Taste of Death to blow stuff up, and use Bone Minions to get 2 per summon. Putrid Explosion can be used, but disease is generally bad unless you are running Tainted. Nec primary can also run MB, but not as effective. However, you will have a lot of slots left to bring damaging spells, such as Putrid Bile and Rising Bile. Icy Veins can also be used, but then you have to give up Jagged.
6. Golem suck, don't use it.
7. Again, bring self-heal.

super strokey · Nov 08, 2007, 12:22 AM // 00:22

when i mm i love using Order of undeath with vamps and spamming blood of the master, its so crazy overpowered lol. That with a few fiends makes for a potent build that stays up for a long time.

Lavans · Nov 08, 2007, 01:01 AM // 01:01

Every time I hear someone say Flesh Golem sucks doesn't back it up. Is there any valid logical reasoning behind their statement or is it just a mindless supposition?

tmakinen · Nov 08, 2007, 07:05 AM // 07:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lavans

Every time I hear someone say Flesh Golem sucks doesn't back it up. Is there any valid logical reasoning behind their statement or is it just a mindless supposition?

Just look at it. One flesh golem is the functional equivalent of two fiends. So you're using up your elite slot to have 11 fiends instead of 10, or a 10% increase in damage output, which sucks for an elite when you have much better options around. But wait, you can recycle the golem and thus take it to places where corpses are scarce. Not good enough, take Jagged Bones and you can keep recycling your entire army indefinitely. FG used to be a hawt skill when you could have a full army of them but ANet closed the loopholes and it has been pretty meh ever since.

The only place where I might think of using Flesh Golem would be a solo MM farmer who uses FG to bootstrap the army raising process ... perhaps, haven't tried so far but assume that it could work in some cases.

Mist Walker Skarloc · Nov 08, 2007, 07:48 AM // 07:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lavans

wow...i simply ask people to bite their tongue unless they have something useful to say and i get jumped...>.>

My tongue's bleedin'.

Wait no, I do have something useful to say!
I'm not gonna start throwing 'ure bild iz teh suxx' at you, regardless of it being true. Instead, I'll give you this advice:
In my opinion at least, MMs don't just do damage with minions. They're meant to catch any stray aggro your frontliners didn't get. Hence, don't use Bone Fiends, use melee minions such as Shambling Horrors. I'm not a good Necromancer at all, but I know what I'd like my MM to be doing for the team.

Moloch Vein · Nov 08, 2007, 07:56 AM // 07:56

It's better to use a mixture of melee and ranged minions in my opinion.

Don't drink red wine, white wine, beer, vodka, whiskey and champagne in one night kids...

Carinae · Nov 08, 2007, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

The only place where I might think of using Flesh Golem would be a solo MM farmer who uses FG to bootstrap the army raising process ... perhaps, haven't tried so far but assume that it could work in some cases.

We have a winner!

furanshisuko · Nov 08, 2007, 03:49 PM // 15:49

omg lol

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Chthon · Nov 08, 2007, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Just look at it. One flesh golem is the functional equivalent of two fiends. So you're using up your elite slot to have 11 fiends instead of 10, or a 10% increase in damage output, which sucks for an elite when you have much better options around. But wait, you can recycle the golem and thus take it to places where corpses are scarce. Not good enough, take Jagged Bones and you can keep recycling your entire army indefinitely..

This is pretty accurate. In defense of Fleshy, though, I might nitpick:

Fleshy is the DPS equivalent of 2 fiends or 3 horrors, so the damage increase is going to fall between 10% and 20%, depending on your normal fiend :: melee ratio.
JB is not a great team-recycler either. The resulting jagged horrors have lower hp, AL, and DPS* than any of the other horrors. (*The bleeding would only offset the lack of DPS if they fanned out and spread the bleeding around, but that's exactly what the AI doesn't do.)
Fleshy is useful in "wall of meat" builds, where you sacrifice your offense for tanking. That said, the only place I've brought a "wall of meat" build and not regretted not bringing a damage build is HM Tombs.

All in all, Fleshy is not a bad skill. It's just outshone by other options, like OoU.

Moloch Vein · Nov 09, 2007, 01:12 AM // 01:12

The best defense of the Golem is as a self-protection device serving as an anchor for Dark Bond and Infuse Condition. If it is vitally important for your MM to control at least one minion and corpses are sparse, then a Golem might not be such a bad idea.

blue.rellik · Nov 09, 2007, 04:35 AM // 04:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

We have a winner!

A solo MM?

Carinae · Nov 09, 2007, 05:11 AM // 05:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue.rellik

A solo MM?

Sure! I made a LOT of money solo MMing Ettins.